Race — That Four-Letter Word

Here it is: my post about race and how that affects me as an Asian parent. Please bear with me as I bang it out, very unpoetically.

Julie Pippert from The Ravin' Picture Maven wrote the following quote; one that was written in regards to a topic regarding race and blogs post-BlogHer '07, but one that is germane to all matters of race, in my opinion:

"...while I don't think another person's race ought to matter to me, in my assessment of them, it can matter to them in how they feel a part of the world and therefore I ought to respect that, especially if they ask me to consider it as part of my understanding of them as an individual. I ask the same. My racial experiences are a part of me, too, and have affected how I view race, racial issues, and culture."

I have many experienced many racial incidents that have shaped my views. There are two, however, to which I always return.

* * *
My parents, who came to America from Korea in their 20s, owned a jewelry store. As a kid, I spent much of my time there helping out. One day, two teenage girls were browsing the display cases. They wasted my time asking to look at this and that, and I obliged because that was my job. At one point one of the girls fiddled with her bracelet and accidentally dropped it in the crack between two display cases. I told her to hold on, and asked my Dad if he had something long with which to it fish it out. He walked back over to the girls to take a look, and then asked them something I did not hear as I searched for a rescue tool.

One of them answered, "Ching chong chong chong?" They looked at each other and laughed hysterically.

This — I heard. I walked over, angry, and pulled my Dad away. Then turned to them and said, "Get your &^%* bracelet out yourself."

They looked at us with surprise. My Dad shook his head and in Korean, said something to the effect of, "Screw them. Let me just get it for them so they can leave."

He helped the girls retrieve their bracelet, and without even a thank you, they turned and left.

* * *
Perhaps you can see (or perhaps you can't) why I, personally, am offended by that ridiculous phrase; those cursed words directed at Asians by people who have no wit to stand by so rely on a schoolyard taunt probably originated by six-year-olds. As an adult, maybe I should be able to get over it, as I have been told so many times. However, that one phrase immediately calls to mind the above memory. It is one that causes me to clench my fists as I think about chasing after two ignorant girls. It is one that makes me want to stand up for my parents and go to the mattresses. I respect that my parents were not willing to make a scene, and I knew, deep down, that those two girls were not worth the trouble. But it is part of my experience and short of those girls finding me and apologizing, I suspect it is not one that I will completely get over.

Growing up, I tried to ignore such racially charged, derogatory comments, but on occasion I realized some people were just a product of their environment. And sometimes, I would get to know these people and eventually, befriend them. It wasn't that I necessarily wanted them as friends. It was more selfish; I needed to know that people weren't inherently cruel and callous and that they could change their attitude. I needed people to know that racist comments were unacceptable, and I needed them to know that I was more than just a race. However, I've also felt bitter and wondered why I've had to even prove anything; bitter that I even had to make this kind of effort.

* * *
As an adult working in Boston, I got off at Back Bay Station one day and headed towards the exit. Two young boys walked in as I walked out and we nearly collided into each other. I stepped aside and said, "Oh, sorry. Go ahead."

The two boys waltzed by, and I heard one of them say to the other, "Ching chong ching chong." They both laughed hysterically.

I was stunned — not so much because, obviously, I've never heard those words, but because I was polite to them, and they still felt the need to be rude for no apparent reason. And they had an attitude about it — as if they had every right to react that way. I took two steps out the door, then stopped and turned around. I pictured myself grabbing that kids' jacket and asking for his phone number so I could call his mother and tell her what her child said. And then I realized that there was a chance he learned this type of behavior at home. I was frozen at the prospect of dealing not only with an ignorant child, but perhaps an ignorant parent as well.

I turned around and headed home. And I understood, with a very heavy heart, the thick, infiltrative nature of ignorance. I understood the influence a parent could have on their child just by the environment he/she provides. I realized how tired I was of trying to alter the perception of even one person. And I understood, most of all, how my parents must have felt that one day.

* * *
After thinking about this more, I find it interesting that both of these incidents involve parents: the first, my own; and the second — in my mind anyway — the young boy's. I remember vividly how my parents reacted and how I was expected to react. I was very protective of my parents, and I still am. As for the boy's parents — perhaps they would have been shocked and disappointed in their son. Perhaps they would have repeated the ignorance. At the time, I didn't have the energy to find out.

Now that I have kids, I have wondered what my racial stamp will be. I realize that I, as a parent, have the ability to instill in my children the difference between right and wrong; between acceptance and racism. I also realize that I have a job not only as a parent, but also as a minority — that job that so tired me previously. I need to provide my kids with another attitude. One that is forgiving, yes, but not weak. One that is open to the possibility of ignorance, but not open to excusing it. One that is friendly, but not desperate for acceptance. One that is forceful and strong, but not violent. One that is confident. One that can change other negative attitudes. One that will (hopefully) help change and shape the future.

Those are just two experiences that have shaped my racial views. To paraphrase Julie: this is what matters to me. Go ahead Internet — it's your turn.

-hm

* * *
Originally posted at Parenting Magazine.

Comments

[ei-nyung]

I also realize that I have a job not only as a parent, but also as a minority — that job that so tired me previously.

These words rang so true in me; the phrase "a job that so tired me" describes so well that weary so-tired-don't-want-to-deal-with-ignorance feeling. As an adult now in my 30s living in the Bay Area, working a white collar job, I can afford (not just economically, but socially as well) to only socialize in my peronal time with people I like. I don't have to deal with the everyday ignorances of random people, for the most part anyway.

But I remember dealing with this type of thing, every single day. I remember going through stages where I tried to ignore it, then tried to educate, then got tired and just snapped at people, then went back to trying to educate, and now... I think I've put down the torch. It's selfish, I know.

I am not a parent yet. But my husband and I are planning to become parents in the very near future. And these are the kinds of thoughts that plague me in the middle of the night, in the midst of financial planning, wondering about jobs and maternity leave, being able to return to work, etc.: the most fundamental question of, will I be able to do right by my kid? Will I be able to raise them to be decent human being, to look at the world without prejudice? Will I also be able to protect them from hatred, yet teach them about the realities of the world and how to deal with ignorance, without instilling further ignorance?

And so, I must pick up the torch again, learn amongst like-minded individuals how to make this work, how not to work again to bridge the gap, to create understanding.

Reading over your experience at the store, I think back to similar incidents in my childhood, and even now. I think of my parents and how they seemed so tired, how they told me to be the bigger person, how we were above that, yet how frustrating and impotent that made me feel.

Yet, I don't yet have different words to offer my future children. I have so much respect for the mamas on this blog. I've learned so much from reading your stories and marvel at your fortitude. I hope that in a couple of years, I will be able to see in myself the strength and wisdom and everyday humor that you guys show everyday, and to be able to teach my kids the way you mamas (and papas and friends) teach your kids.

I need to provide my kids with another attitude. One that is forgiving, yes, but not weak. One that is open to the possibility of ignorance, but not open to excusing it. One that is friendly, but not desperate for acceptance. One that is forceful and strong, but not violent. One that is confident. One that can change other negative attitudes. One that will (hopefully) help change and shape the future.

Amen. Beautiful words, and a beautiful vision. Thank you for sharing. It meant a lot to me to read your words.

[jooliyah]

i NEED to comment here. my comment got to long for that parent's page.

but being ching chonged at completely shocks me EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. because i really can't believe people are that stupid. it's different than ignorance. it's just stupid. i live in a state with an asian majority so it didn't happen for the first time until i was sixteen. i was hanging out in waikiki with some friends when a group of caucasian boys walked by the ching ching chonged us as they passed. we gasped and looked at each other with confusion because we didn't know what to do. and we'd never encountered such gratuitous mean-ness before.

i agree with ei-nyung that your thoughts about how all of this will affect how you teach your children is written beautifully. and more importantly it's gotten me to really think about how i'm going to approach this with turtle. it's something i always knew i was going to deal with, but now i think i'm going to have to work it out....ima thinkin' i will be writing a blog post about this soon. i hope it's okay that it'll be inspired by you....

[halfmama]

Thank you both for your comments. As I said on my blog, I felt a little exposed posting that over on Parenting, and feel much safer posting it over here. (That in itself is disappointing I guess.)

jooliyah, I'm flattered you are inspired to dedicate a post to this topic! However, I should be fair and credit a lot of my motivation to the blog/race issue going around the Internet right now, including a wonderful post written by Glennia on blogrhet (which I hope she cross-posts here).

ei-nyung, I think just the fact that you are aware and concerned about the issue is proof that you will be a dedicated parent. In the end, I think that's all that really matters.

[Kyuboem]

I blogged about this very issue a couple months ago here, and it generated quite a response. I live and work in inner city Philadelphia; that's the backdrop for the story. I understand the visceral reaction among the Asians to this childish/ignorant/mean insult, having been on the receiving end myself many times while growing up in Kenya (yes, the insult is international).

I think Asians usually get shocked that people still do this... it will probably keep happening, unfortunately. The question is, How should I respond? And the very important question that you have posed: How do we teach our children to respond?

You've made some wonderful comments about the things we need to think of as we approach our kids. One thing I don't want to do is pass on a stoic, "We are better than them" mindset while I try to teach them to not hate back. Being a Christian, I want my kids to respond out of a strong sense of grace; for me, this is the only way I can steer clear of both retribution and quiet but destructive self-righteousness.

[Halim]

well, most ignorant white people tend to be cowards. so they pick on a racial group that is stereotyped to be harmless and conforming: asians. an asian would never confront their racism and call their parents or somesuch.

in another time they would not be ching-chonging but instead be using the n-word.

today those people (and their children apparently) pick on asians because they believe in stereotypes. they would never pick on black people, because of the stereotype that black people are violent and would immediately retaliate in a thug-like manner, thus they fear black people and only express their racist attitudes towards them in private. they feel the same of hispanics and fear cholos.

but asians? come on. they're those small people who are meek say the racists.

whether or not the stereotype has a grain of truth in it, racists, like most bullies, cringe in the face of strength. do not back down. do the right thing. confront them on the issue. if they ching-chong you, call their parents, or if they are older, look into their eyes and ask them to repeat what they said. racists are only encouraged by those that meekly (in their eyes) back down. if what they say bothers you, say something about it. their behavior is shameful and they should be publicly shamed and excoriated.

[jaxnam]

I really identify with this. I grew up in Utah and have been "ching chonged" many times along with the "go back to where you came from". But it is ironic, because I went to a 2 year school in SF and was literally knocked down (not sure if he was mentally ill) for being asian. And now living in So. Calif., I have been "ching chonged" by a Father and son while driving because I wouldn't let them into my lane. So it is really everywhere and I truly believe that when you have felt this type of hurt, anger, and humiliation--it never really leaves you..

[carolie]

Halim wrote "well, most ignorant white people tend to be cowards. so they pick on a racial group that is stereotyped to be harmless and conforming: asians. an asian would never confront their racism and call their parents or somesuch...in another time they would not be ching-chonging but instead be using the n-word."

I beg to respectfully disagree. I am of European heritage, basically "white". I live in Japan. I have some (Japanese) neighbors who treat me not so well because I am American and white. I have other (Japanese) neighbors who are charming and loving and wonderful, one of whom recently confronted and "told off" a gaggle of students who were walking behind me and giggling at me. I have NEVER seen Asians as "harmless and conforming."

I grew up in the American south. My best friend in high school(still my best friend twenty four years later) was black, gay and jewish. The Asians in our school were all assumed to be brilliant, and all the boys I knew thought the Asian girls were gorgeous. There was plenty of use of the N-word for my friend, but I never heard the "ching chong" stuff. To this day, I can visit my home town, and I will hear plenty from bigots about Black and Hispanic folks, but nothing about Asians.

If I were to repeat what Halim said, but I replaced any of the racial terms used (white, Asian) with any other racial terms, I'd be vilified and crucified.

I do have to admit however, that those whose big taunt against Asians is a mocking of the "supposed" sounds of an Asian language are probably the least creative "insulters" I've ever heard of. I find the Asian languages to be melodic, intricate and fascinating, and much prettier than gutteral English!

[maria]

"I can afford (not just economically, but socially as well) to only socialize in my peronal time with people I like. I don't have to deal with the everyday ignorances of random people, for the most part anyway."--ei-nyung

...and that's what it is called "asian privilege" (aka white privilege does not exist)

[ei-nyung]

I think in general (hee!) that generalizing *who* is the antagonist in situations like this doesn't help anyone, and only furthers the problem between groups of people. I would like to think that we can keep ourselves from turning it around and validating bigotry in response.

I try not to assume anything about anyone, and let their individual, personal actions and reactions speak for themselves. If the person who antagonizes me is white or black or Latino or another Asian, etc., this has no bearing on the next individual of that particular group that I meet.

I definitely agree that there is a prevailing stereotype that Asians-Americans are meek and are easy targets. In Oakland, in the last several months, there have been an increase in attacks on older Asian American residents in the Chinatown area. One of the perpetrators that was caught said that they targetted them because "... they have lots of cash and won't fight back." One example does not prove the point, but I think the general sentiment has been observed throughout.

And I definitely agree with Carolie that things are different outside of the US, especially in countries that are so predominantly homogenous. There is nothing genetically inherent in any specific race or ethnicity of people that validates bigotry. Every culture points the finger at a certain minority group for violence/crime/whatever societal ills they need a scapegoat for, whether it's "people who live by the docks", "those people with the weird accents", "those people that look funny", "those poor people on the other side of the tracks", "those people who are taking our jobs" -- in every country, you'll see people say this about someone, and in every country probably disagrees about who that group is.

No matter what, it sucks to be the underrepresented, minority voice, and for everyone to know it. It's a scary place to be.

Mostly, I can only address things as an Asian American because this is the country I grew up in. And this sucks, because I know we have lots of people on KimchiMamas from different countries -- I've been lurking a lot :) -- and we should definitely all keep that in mind too.

Maria, it's definitely true. Living in the Bay Area and being a white collar professional is such a huge leap from my youth of growing up hovering at the poverty level with blue collar parents who worked their fingers to the bone. I grew up where everywhere I went, I was mocked, teased, chased, and threatened. I honestly don't think two days in a row ever went by without my feeling threatened due to being Asian, and feeling constantly ready to defend myself.

It's different working in Silicon Valley. And it's different being white-collar. It's sort of scary to think of how insulated I've become, and how complacent it can make me, even as I know about the gang warfare that goes on in Oakland, South San Francisco, and San Jose. It's so easy to see in the short time that I've been in this bubble why people who've been protected from bigotry all their lives can be lead to believe that bigotry is not a problem and that people are exaggerating things.

It's a really scary thought. So I am vigilantly trying to keep my eyes and ears and mind open.

[carolie]

Thank you, e-nyung...you are right that my current experiences are not with Asian-Americans, and I have no experience at all living in a west coast community with Asian-Americans.

You said 'There is nothing genetically inherent in any specific race or ethnicity of people that validates bigotry. Every culture points the finger at a certain minority group for violence/crime/whatever societal ills they need a scapegoat for, whether it's "people who live by the docks", "those people with the weird accents", "those people that look funny", "those poor people on the other side of the tracks", "those people who are taking our jobs" -- in every country, you'll see people say this about someone, and in every country probably disagrees about who that group is.'

Beautifully put...and so sad that this is true. My experiences with bigotry have been because I've been in an area where being white was to be in the minority, where being a female was to be in the minority, where people have made (erroneous) judgements about me because of my weight, because of my norther accent, because of my odd vocabulary...but I've never had the experience of being victimized as a person of color, and I will never really know what it's like to stand in those shoes, any more than a man can understand what it's like to be discriminated against as a woman.

So, please forgive me for being forward and pushing into a conversation where perhaps, I should not have pushed myself. I admire the women who contribute to this blog so much, and most of the commenters. Thank you for being a public forum from which all of us might learn!

[ei-nyung]

Carolie, I really hope you don't think that I meant we shouldn't talk about your experiences! Eeks! I think we can all learn by understanding the broader scope of bigotry and prejudice, and your story helps me understand and think of situations I don't sit and think of everyday.

[Daisy]

I'll never forget my MIL expressing concern about my daughter's friends -- two Hmong girls. This happened nine or ten years ago, and it still sticks in my mind. Fortunately, it doesn't bother my children. They recognize the racism, but they do not repeat it. I hope that means I've done something right.

[Kyuboem]

halfmama, thank you for your kind comment over at my post!

[carolie]

Not at all, ei-nyung! I meant what I said...you phrased things so well, and I loved reading what you had to say!

I just got paranoid that perhaps I shouldn't have commented on and on, ad nauseam, about a subject that some might feel I haven't truly experienced. YOU didn't make me paranoid, just my own re-reading of the post and the other comments. I love visiting here, and I always learn!

[Hi :)]

I think most Asians in US doesn't do anything about it because as Asians are percived as foreigners, not true Americans, Asians doesn't have vested interest in well-being of this country. I am sure most Asians don't feel patriotic about being Americans (I mean who would when everyone else around you telling you are a foreigner). And push comes a shove, most Asians will gladly jet from this country once it starts into downward spiral as it also had began. So my advice to fellow Koreans, get ready to jet from here in about 20 to 30 years. :)

[Summer]

I think most Asians in US doesn't do anything about it because as Asians are percived as foreigners, not true Americans, Asians doesn't have vested interest in well-being of this country. I am sure most Asians don't feel patriotic about being Americans (I mean who would when everyone else around you telling you are a foreigner). And push comes a shove, most Asians will gladly jet from this country once it starts into downward spiral as it also had began. So my advice to fellow Koreans, get ready to jet from here in about 20 to 30 years. :)

I haven’t been home, with moving and all that jazz, but this comment is delaying me from my much wanted sleep, and I have to write because yeah, not since the summer camp thing (which we never got much of an update about) the above comment bothers the crap out of me!

You are only a foreigner when you feel like it. I don’t partake in the first definition of foreigner of where you are not of this land, but more of the lesser used definition of being part of an outside group or community…this is America baby, we all come from somewhere, and yes, going from L.A. to New York makes you a foreigner as going from Miami to Fairbanks, Alaska. That said, having worked in the tourism industry for one summer many summers ago, I have seen fake-tanned girls wear a kuspuk and get down with dancing in a traditional style.

Is the perception of being a “foreigner” what you broadcast by your manner or by your features?

Just because there aren’t that many PUBLIC figures holding the front, that doesn’t mean that there are many Asians in the background, such as church members, bloggers, community members, whom are reaching out by food, written or spoken word, about how the Asian culture is more than the wars of the previous generations (Vietnam, Korean War.)

I understand that it is different from so-called basic America, and yes, it is generational, as one of my neighbors recalled a story of her mother-in-law complaining how her other son’s wife is always serving rice at meals, my neighbor’s in-law is Korean who lost her family in the Korean War. They never mentioned it to us because all this time of being neighbors, they thought we were Chinese. I am Native American, mixed with Eskimo, most folks don’t just see my friendly face, they perceive my friendly face of their culture (mixed Korean, mixed Chinese, Hawaiian, Vietnamese, Filopino, Hispanic) while most Caucasian assume I don’t speak English.

Plus, I do have to say I don’t know about the Asians where you are, but most I know are proud to be Americans, and are patriotic. Starting with my own husband. He proudly served active duty and now proudly serves as a reservist. His parents proudly became Americans. Even in our former church in C’ville, they were American-Koreans. And when push came to shove, yes, our church is almost done raising enough money to build it’s own church to become a PERMANENT and ACTIVE member of the C’ville community.

Where does the line of maintaining cultural heritage stop besides full American assimilation? Unfortunately at another parenting forum (BBC) there was a heated debate on language, how English needs to be the one and only.

It has a big support faction too. I was never so shocked that in there were so many parents of single and multiple children writing on how this is America, speak English.

I firmly support language and culture, after all, Feds have had their hand in wiping out many tribes. Why is America so insecure of its identity that we cannot embrace something that will most likely written as enriching our history 20 years down the road?

Sometimes I wonder if I have done a disservice to my children by teaching them that they are no different from other children in other that all children have different talents? I now feel I have not taught them to defend themselves from others on being different. Being mixed Indian will be hard, after all at 29 I am still looking for answers on how much my heritage is a part of myself, and being mixed Korean, even looking full Korean, they get many looks of pity for having a mother that isn’t.

[ei-nyung]

I think most Asians in US doesn't do anything about it because as Asians are percived as foreigners, not true Americans, Asians doesn't have vested interest in well-being of this country. I am sure most Asians don't feel patriotic about being Americans (I mean who would when everyone else around you telling you are a foreigner). And push comes a shove, most Asians will gladly jet from this country once it starts into downward spiral as it also had began. So my advice to fellow Koreans, get ready to jet from here in about 20 to 30 years. :)

I think this comment baffles me. Yes, I have had periods in my life when I felt like, hey, maybe I don't belong here, maybe everyone is right. I think everyone who has a smidgen of difference from the majority goes through that kind of feeling at some point.

But on this blog and many of the sister blogs, you see Korean-Americans, people married to Korean-Americans, children of Korean-Americans -- sorry, getting repetitive here, but I figure KimchiMamas has a direct Korean affiliation ;) -- and lots of other Asian-Americans, who proudly proclaim this country to be ours, and who are working hard to make it better for our kids. We've put down our stakes and are saying, this is what we have, let's try to make it better. I don't think most people here are blogging with the intention of saying, well, this sucks, let's go.

Everytime I look around the local colleges for classes I would take if I had some more time on my hands :) I find that more and more of them have Asian-American studies or Asian-American history classes. As Summer says, there are bloggers, church members, community groups, all working hard to make our presence known and accepted as being normal -- despite our individual quirks. ;) I find that to be an encouraging sign. Asians have been in the US for a long time, and more people immigrate with every generation, and more people put down deeper roots with every generation.

If your opinion differs, I can respect that, but I don't feel comfortable with being lumped into your generalization of Asians being ready to pick up and leave, because the more that thought is repeated, the more people can begin to believe that's true. I believe that there are more people working for a better future. Certainly, the mamas and papas and friends here are doing so in this small corner of the world, and I wouldn't discount them from changing the world. Koreans are stubborn, don't you know? J/K. ;)

[HCG]

This is such a depressing topic. He's only 14 months now but I plan to train my son to do the following:

1) do "round eyes" back when someone does "chinky eyes" to him

2) respond back in a wtf sort of manner right back, age appropriate of course.

3) beat the crap out of an asshole when necessary

RE: the whole stoic thing. Yes it's so wrong, and is not a helpful coping skill. Because sometimes you don't want to be an educational resource for yourself or others, you simply want shove a troll back into their horrible little hole in the ground.

BTW I still keep track of every single asshole who has ever said something nasty. Well the ones who weren't anonymous. And as it turns out the vast majority are still living in their parents basements without a real job.

[Julie Pippert]

This is not unpoetic; it's very well-done. You present the pivotal times that shaped how it is that this *does* affect you all to the point of explaining why it does.

This is so inspiring, "I need to provide my kids with another attitude. One that is forgiving, yes, but not weak. One that is open to the possibility of ignorance, but not open to excusing it. One that is friendly, but not desperate for acceptance. One that is forceful and strong, but not violent. One that is confident. One that can change other negative attitudes. One that will (hopefully) help change and shape the future."

I know that I had it easier than my other relatives who didn't come out on the same end of the "white" stick as me. I didn't have to hear the ignorance directed to me. But it jabbed just the same, almost worse...to be assumed part and parcel of the racial cruelty and ignorance by dint of skin color.

I can't ever understand why some people think as they do re. race and ethnicity, culture and beliefs.

But I feel inspired and hopeful when I read things like I quoted from you above, and when I see discussion like this.

Thanks.
Julie
Ravin' Picture Maven

[The wrong MJ]

HCG-

I loved your post. I too will be teaching my kids to assertively stick up for themselves. Whenever I was teased for being asian as a kid, my parents taught us, "Don't cause trouble, just ignore them." Well, now as an adult, I think it was mentally damaging to my self esteem to basically play the role of a doormat and never do anything to stand up for myself during those type of situations.

I stand up for myself when I encounter these situations now and have to say that it is quite satisfying to tell off some idiotic racist and give them a piece of my mind. My mom has witnessed a few of these encounters and she actually gets upset with ME for being what she considers, "rude" by standing up for myself (and for her). It's very frustrating, I don't understand my parents' mentality not to stick up for themselves. I feel that it may also be a generational thing (my parents are 1st gen taiwanese american), although my korean mil has bitched ppl out before for making racist comments, but I highly doubt my korean fil would have the nerve to do the same thing. Oh, and ITA that the losers who make racist comments probably are the ones who are still living in the basement, with no real job at their mom's house. I have to admit that any time I run into someone who makes racist comments now, I will have that image of them stuck in my head, lol.

Halfmama- I've always loved reading your posts and I identified so much with this particular edition of your blog. I'm glad you chose to use it as your weekly blog at PARENTING magazine. The topic of race is one that most mainstream magazines/websites are quick to sugarcoat or avoid all together.

To the poster who said that americans are not patriotic, because they are not vested in the well being of the united states. I whole heartedly disagree. While you may feel that you can, "jet" to korea, there are many of us who do not feel we can, "jet" back to our ethnic country of origin. I was born and raised in the US, the US is my home. I would feel like an outsider if I decided to pick up everything and relocate to taiwan. Whenever I go to taiwan, I get stares, it is obvious that I am from, "some place else," by the way I walk, talk and dress. The same goes with my DH. He and his family came to the US from south korea when he was only a young child, but I can assure you that he probably would not feel comfortable leaving the US and moving to south korea. The US is our home, so of course we care about what happens to this country. I don't know about you, but we are here to stay. Please do not generalize all asians into the category of being unpatriotic and being ready to flee the country at any second.

[sarah]

hm- reading your story about having to deal with those teenagers gave me chills.

I am a mom- 30 something, white, who is married to a guy who's filipino. I have been "educated" about what it is like to not be a white person in America, but of course I can never live it. And I can only imagine how exhausting it must be to feel like you have to educate people who just don't get it and who continue to be ignorant.

I can't help but wonder all the time what it will be like for my children- to grow up in America today, to deal with all the hot topics (what about the future of the environment? what will happen in Iraq? and what about.....) and also be people who identify with being filipino and white.

Will my 2 boys have to educate people about being asian, or 1/2 asian, or 1/2 white? What will this mean to them and for them?

My husband and I chose to live and raise our family in Queens, NY with the hope that they would learn about other cultures and people from other cultures, and also so that they could feel comfortable not being the only "different" person in the room.

I hope that I'm right- and that I can help guide them if?when? they are witness to ignorance- directed at them or at others.

[:)]

hmmm.... I was just telling the truth about how Asians are treated in America. You can't honestly tell me that it is not true. Just go to any city or town in America and ask locals how they perceive Asians. And good luck trying not to get any profanity from them.
It doesn't matter if minority of Asians feel they are American when 95% of others feel you are not. Its like that Geico commercial where cavemen are constantly complaining about stereotypes of cavemen when no one else gives a sh*t. You might scream American all you want but other people will just see as another go*k.

[writergal28]

I think Asians (specifically EAST Asians) don't do anything because most come from cultures where there is no universal suffrage. Here in Toronto, you see many South Asians (especially Indians) in all forms of government (municipal, provincial AND federal) including those who have only recently acquired citizenship, but rarely have I seen east Asians run for office. The few that have run were either born in Canada or have been in the country for decades. If the latter, they generally received at least some high school in Canada as well.

I don't know if there's a cultural difference between Asians (or at least Chinese) in the US and in Canada, but generally, the negativity towards Chinese in Toronto and Vancouver is more jealousy...the last wave of HK immigrants to both these cities were more or less middle to upper middle class. They were buying regular houses, tearing it down and building McMansions (older residents, white and sometimes even Asian were upset because it ruined the "look" of the neighbourhood), many were even joining the clubs and sending their children to the right (often independent) schools. HKers seemed to comfortably assimilate into parts of what is traditionally seen as WASP culture without losing or giving up HK culture. Is this how things are in the US? Are Asian immigrants more or less middle to upper middle class? Asians, at least Chinese Canadians often don't quite undertand the whole "plight of minorities" thing because of this kind of privilege. Yet, media still report stories about disadvantaged minorities. Most don't see how an upbringing in the suburbs complete with a private school education, ballet, skating and summer camp can be disadvantaged at all.

[halfmama]

To :),
I think that is a gross over-generalization. I can understand being angry over the racism we have all encountered, but I don't at all agree that going into any American town/city store will elicit rude/racist remarks about Asians.

I face racism, sure, but not on a day-to-day basis, everywhere I go. Sometimes it is overt; sometimes it is subtle, and sometimes it just doesn't exist.

Making generalizations like this is not going to get us anywhere with racism. Pointing fingers makes innocent people withdraw and not want to discuss the issue at all. Those innocent people are the ones we want on our side -- not staying neutral, doing nothing either.

Teaching our kids that Americans hate them will pretty much draw them right into a doomed cycle of hate. I'm not sure if you have kids or not, but I know that is absolutely something I do NOT want to teach my kids.

It's tiring, but it's not a burden. It's just part of something that I believe I have to do. Everyone has their part in this world. I guess I consider this one of mine, even if I'm just doing it for my kids.

[:)]

Nah the disadvantages that I am referring to is being called ch*nk, go*k, or slanty eye on regular basis. Passed on a job because you are not white. Looked down upon or maliciously ignored when you are talking. Physically assaulted or threaten with physical assault. Having garbage thrown at you. Denied a service in a restaurant cause you are not white. You know things like that. All of which I have experience multiple times living in US. Shall I have continue with the list or you get the gist ?

[ei-nyung]

:), I think many of us have faced that type of behavior and attitude to some degree or another, and would agree that the point of us all being here is figure out what to do about it. I think the reason I can't stand by and not comment on your comments is that if I did, well, I'd be playing right into your stereotype of Asian people letting people bulldoze over my thoughts with your generalities, despite the fact that it appears we are both Asian.

I don't like your generalities about my supposed meekness, just like I don't like the actual people who call me gook and chink and harrass me. I want it to be 100% clear that I have no problems with you, or the fact that you hold these opinions, but only in that you include me and many others here who are active and vocal and feel America is our home by default in your generalizations. That's the only part that is not ok to me, that even in the face of people speaking up and saying, hey, I'm not like that, we're fighting so that the country won't be like that, etc., you are basically saying, well, this is how is it, so just face up to it.

I don't want to act like it's all over already. I am just starting to think about having children. I feel a new desire to really get back into the community and work hard to make a better world for my kids, not roll over and say, well, can't fight against the majority.

I don't want to create more divisions. I want to create more understanding. I want to talk about where we can go from here, not when we should flee to another country.

In the civil rights era, and even now, black Americans have had to face threats and even loss of lives when they started to move into white communities. Should they have picked up and left and said, this is not for me? Then where would America be now? We have so much further to go, so why should we pack up our bags now?

Man, sorry for going on such a soapbox! :D It's actually really energizing, because I keep thinking of how I need to work hard to make sure my kids *do* inherit a better world to live in, that I can't be stagnant and that I can't let it be someone else's problem.

So even though we disagree, I feel like I got something positive from the experience. :)

And to writergal28's questions, the problem of a "Pan-Asian" perception is pretty big. In the San Francisco Bay Area, the public schools that are considered the very best often are majority Chinese, and UC Berkeley saw a rise in total percentage of Asian American students when they removed some of the affirmative action-related policies.

However, that didn't mean that that percentage represented an equal rise across all distinct Asian ethnicities. In general, in the US, some of the Asian groups seen as a whole appear to prosper better than others, but that masks a whole subset of other groups, who are doing far worse than the average American median. For instance, from my Asian American history class of long ago, I learned that Hmong, Vietnamese, and Cambodian populations in the US generally (not as a rule) are not very prosperous and do not have the high college enrollment that fit the stereotype of the Asian nerd, largely due to families that may have immigrated under huge disadvantages, such as extreme political duress, and lack of communnity upon first entering the country, unlike other immigrants who have family sponsors.

The problem here is that because Asian Americans are seen to be prosperous and have no trouble getting into college, even though these are "positive" stereotypes, this hurts people who don't fit because policies can reflect those stereotypes. The public perception means that there might be fewer outreach groups, fewer scholarships geared toward those specific underrepresented groups, fewer resources in other areas, because "Asian Americans don't need any help".

I am not sure if I addressed the issues you raised, but I sure hope some of it was relevant! :D

[ei-nyung]

Also, for the record, my family immigrated to the US with a whole total of $75 and 5 "immigration bags" for a family of 5 and my parents worked as unskilled laborers (until they became skilled! :D), so things were pretty economically rough for us for decades. All the scholarships -- I had a small scholarship in high school that paid for my bus tokens! :) -- and provisions like free school lunch for poor families helped me get to where I am now! All my friends growing up were in the same boat or much worse off. So yeah, there are a lot of Asian Americans who are not well-off.

[Cynthia]

But Ei-Nyung, the problems of disadvantaged Asians not prospering/getting into schools/etc are very similar to disadvantaged whites as technically, both races can complain about the same things. And disadvantaged white people probably have it even worse, because of so-called "white privilege" (I guess there's such a thing as Asian privilege too).

I think this is a topic worth discussing, though. I think the Asian-as-a-minority point of view is often very different from other minority groups. And often people don't seem to "get" that.

[Cynthia]

Oh, just to let you know: Cynthia=writergal8

[:)]

Hey I never said that Asians are meek. I said Asians doesn't do anything about it because Asians doesn't feel sense of belonging in US. Without this sense of belonging, it leads to apathy. Asians will brush off those comments with "ehhh.... I don't care about this country anyway so what the f*ck".

[ei-nyung]

Cynthia, I agree with you that those situations are similar. I think that the one level that it is different is that adding the perception of prosperity with the perception of "otherness"/foreigness (sorry, I know that's not a word, but can't think of the right form right now) leads to tension between groups that is different. For people who are looking at white privilege with anger instead of trying to inform, it might manifest itself as anger and jealousy. For people who are looking at supposed Asian privilege, there is all those plus a xenophobic "get out of my country, stop taking my jobs, stop taking my scholarships, stop forcing your culture on me" sentiment, which many countries' histories (including ours in the recent past; see LA riots) show is extremely dangerous.

I should also say that on an anecdotal level, more Asian Americans I knew in my life were dirt poor (far, far below the lower income line and living close to the poverty line) and it's only after being in CA that I've ever met Asian Americans with any amount of money, and I mean just a savings account with more than a couple of hundred dollars in it. I don't know about the median prosperity of Asian Canadians so I feel inadequate to comment on that.

Also, it's not about just the insults... it's that growing up, there was an overwhelming sense around me that being Asian American meant being inferior, and not because people were jealous of my privilege. It was definitely about being lesser and other and unwanted, so on a personal level, it is difficult to address perceptions of Asian privilege, apart from the specifics of my work force environment (software engineering in Silicon Valley in the Bay Area). For that latter part, I don't even know how much of it is specific to the industry or the region or simply sheer volume in population, but I definitely do feel it.

I think that's the main difference: while all groups feel the same sets of socioeconomic pressures and prejudices (like people who talk about "white trash" or "people from the other side of the tracks" at the same time as "those Mexicans" -- being poor and being lower on the strata sucks for *everyone*), the one thing that white Americans can, for the large part, avoid is ethnic prejudices. And I say, for the large part, because I know there were and in some parts of the country still are gross prejudices against Italians and Irish and German and many other white ethnicities.

[ei-nyung]

Of course, Mexicans in CA (and many other states) or people who are mistaken for being Mexican also suffer from the "get back to your own country" treatment.

A point that is sort of getting lost is that a problem doesn't have to be completely unique to one group for it to be a problem. Asian Americans face a certain set of problems and other groups also face some common set of problems. I can address those I have personal experiences with and try to fix them for my future kids, but I also keep my ears open to learn about other groups.

[VGC]

I've too have faced this type of racism growing up. It's tough being the only asian in your entire elementary school and counting all the asians in your (large) high school with two hands. I remember in the 6th grade, there was a list of all of the sudents' names on a piece of paper next to the classroom. I also remember that there was another column with a letter next to every name. Everybody had the letter W next to their name except mine. I had an A. I didn't understand why mine was different until a year or so later. WTF? Why did they feel the need to have that? By the way, one of my classmates was Native American, but I guess he just gets clumped in the 'W' category.

I learned that people don't hide their asian racism. I go to the supermarket or the mall and have some little kid go, "Look mommy! A Chinese girl!" and the mother would say, "I know". I had a group of boys go, "Hey! She looks like the girl from Mulan!" I had some 20-something guy walking with his girlfriend go, "Ching ching chong" as I passed by him at the grocery store. None of these people bothered to keep their voice down. They didn't just whisper these insults to their friends. They WANTED me to hear. And I'm sorry that I didn't do something about those instances, even though I was young.

I agree with Summer in that it is hard to be loyal to a country that treats asians like a perpetual foreigner. That's one of the many reasons why I just want to leave, even though I know realistically, that'll probably never happen.

[The wrong MJ]

:),

I do not deny that there are racists out there and they are very hateful. I've experienced a lot of it myself. However, I am curious, what do YOU do when you are in these type of situations where ppl are making racist comments to you? Do you just bow your head and run away or do you speak up for yourself? If you don't speak up for yourself, you are playing a role in perpetuating racism against asians.

Cynthia,

Asian privilege??? I'm confused, as an asian american, I have never heard of this term before. The term white privilege encompasses several things, socioeconomic factors issues encompass all races so you really can't use this as the basis of, "asian privilege." However, as EN pointed out whites often do not encounter prejudice and racism just based on physical racial features and other factors such as an obvious asian sir name. I am still not sure what you mean by, "asian privilege." Also, I find it kind of funny that ppl in toronto would be so upset about well-to-do asian immigrants, when the general perception of immigrants in the US by your avg american is that they are all dirt poor, taking all of the jobs meant for, "americans" and sucking all of our gov't resources dry. Trust me, there are asian americans/canadians that are not wealthy, the idea that asians are all rich is part of the model minority myth.

[:)]

Up until High School, I tried to ignore them because one time in middle school, when I said something back to those kids that said ching chong chang go back to China go*k, couple of them came over and proceeded to punch me and kick me. I was at a school yard after school and there were few adults but it seems like they didn't give a sh*t about some go*k kid getting his whipped by a gang of white boys. I hobbled to home with my nose bleeding and swollen face. Since my immigrant parents worked till late night, they didn't get to see me until after ten PM. And when they did, I explained the whole situation. Afterward my mother broke down and my father went out for a smoke. I could sense they were extremely hurt and I felt bad cause I know this isn't the reason why they immigrated to US. They didn't come here to see their kid get beat up sorely because of race but they had to face the harsh reality. Lets face it, my parents didn't speak English well enough to complain to the authority or school, they were working long hours to support the family, and can't take time off to pick me up from school like other white kid's family was doing at that time. Yeah So To Wrong MJ, DURING MY SCHOOL YEARS I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING CAUSE MORE THAN ME BEING MEEK OR ANY SH*T YOU CAN THINK OF, I DIDN'T WANT TO HURT MY PARENT'S FEELING. SO I HELD ANY FRUSTRATIONS WHENEVER I WAS MOCKED OR RIDICULED. BUT NOW THAT I MOVED OUT AND LIVING BY MYSELF, I DON'T DO THAT ANYMORE. I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE TO START A FIGHT OR PULL OUT A WEAPON.

[writergal28/Cynthia]

The Wrong MJ,

"Asian Privilege" more or less only exists in area where the population is significant enough and where they generally are economically well off enough not to truly understand what the media mean when they talk about minorities being disadvantaged. Many also have enough connections in the old country that young people can spend some time working back there before transferring back here (and at a job that is at least at a managerial level).

As for oldtimer Vancouverites and Torontonians being upset at well-to-do Chinese immigrants, many feel that way not only because these immigrants are rebuilding smaller houses into McMansions, but also because these immigrants often join clubs and organizations that took them generations to be able to join. Others find it difficult to understand how immigrants can possibly even have money, because, well, immigrants are supposed to be poor.

[The wrong MJ]

:),

I don't quite understand why you thought that by speaking up you would hurt your parents' feelings? If you were being brutally beaten at school by other students, your parents should have known about it, whether or not it hurt their feelings. I do know that I do not think my parents realized the amt of teasing and racism that my brothers and I had to endure at school everyday. They just keep saying that since my brothers and I were born in america and did not have an accent, that we would not face the racism that they (my parents) faced and that they came to america so that we would have opportunities that they never had (I still don't understand this one, because my parents would have been better off staying in taiwan, but that's another story for another day). They were, and still are very naive in this belief. In my situation, we stopped telling our parents about what was happening in school, because my parents never stood up for my brothers and I when we got picked on, they kept telling us to ignore it. We all know how difficult it can be to ignore things like this.

Looking back, I shouldn't have listened to my parents. However, just because our parents were passive about these situations, it doesn't mean that we have to be too. BTW, I hope you realize that you can be assertive without being violent. I am NOT encouraging anyone to start a fight or to pull out a weapon, because some racist idiot ching-chongs you. Nobody wants another cho incident. Ppl who make racist comments want to get under your skin, but you don't want to give them the benefit of letting them know that they were successful. I really feel the best way to deal with ppl with racist comments is to call them out on it and confront them in a calm, non-threatening manner and even responding with a smart sarcastic comment will get the message through. It will make them think twice before saying/doing something racist/ignorant again.

[ei-nyung]

Your experiences suck, but they are not unique, but that's why most of us are here, to make experiences like that happen less and less, and hopefully never.

Violence is definitely not the answer. Some of the adults who chased me screaming "chink, go back home" and threw bottles at me when I was a kid probably had been affected by something like a lay-off and were unfairly blaming people who looked like me. I'm sure those people thought to themselves, "I'm not gonna lie down and take it, I'm going to show those people I'm not gonna roll over and let them take over my country." This is why I am not willing to respond to hatred with hatred. If I feel justified, as you seem to, in turning to violence and anger, than I am exactly which I do not wish to become. I then perpetrate the actions of those I wish to stop.

I *will* step up to stop ignorance and hatred and bigotry. What I refuse to do is to become a hate-filled bigot myself.

I feel bad that I've written so many comment on this blog entry, after having lurked for so long... But because I have lurked here for a while, I know that the purpose of this group is not to "be the first to start a fight or pull out a weapon" -- what kind of talk is that, seriously? Yeah, I used to feel angry all the time, but I realized that was just self-destructive. I hope you come to realize that too.

I just noticed that that sounded really sanctimonious, but I mean it sincerely. Life is better when you take positive action than when you lash out in anger.

[:)]

One more thing that I want to add is the word that my mother used when I was beaten up in middle school: "bi-cham". It is a Korean phrase used to describe a situation when you were greatly wronged but you don't have any power to seek remedy or justice. Kind of like Korea's situation during 1900's to 1960's.

[The wrong MJ]

Cynthia,

I guess I still think the whole, "asian privilege" idea is funny. I mean, what is wrong with having ties with their country of origin? My parents still have ties, but they have never gotten me or my siblings a comfy job back in taiwan. My in laws stil have ties in south korea, but they have never used any of those ties for their kids either. Nepotism is something that runs rampant in america. So, why is it such an issue if *some* asians do it? Would it be an issue if it were a different ethnic group, such as french or italians doing the same thing? Being upset that immigrants can join clubs and organizations that are only supposed to be reserved for upper class types? What is this... high school? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

Maybe there is such a thing as, "asian privilege" where you live. However, I have never experienced asian privilege anywhere I have lived. The asian americans that I know deal with quite the opposite situation, even those that I know who live in areas where there are large numbers of asians. There will be asian privilege where I live when pigs fly.

[:)]

To Wrong MJ, The reason why my parents were hurt is because they were sorry to put me in such situation where I was physically assaulted solely base on my race. Even though it was not my parents' fault, they felt they deserved a huge chunk of responsibility for leaving me in such awful situation. Had I stayed in Korea, I would NEVER be beaten up just because of my race. They knew what kind of sh*t that I went through living in America cause they went through same sh*t. My parents got yelled at, physically assaulted, and stuff thrown at by people yelling go*k, ch*nk, ching chong, and slanty eye. But at least they hoped, I would be treated little better than them, but when they saw me with blooded face, they knew I was treated as badly as them and powerless to do anything about it. Thats why.

[writergal28/Cynthia]

MJ,

I don't really understand what you're getting at. No, it's no different with other cultures. Nepotism is nepotism, and it's crazy in Asia, just like it's crazy in this part of the world. My view of "white privilege" is nepotism. Old line whites often have the connections that newer Americans/Canadians don't have, especially when it comes to securing jobs for the younger generation.

Oh, and is the Mean Girls version of discrimination not discrimination/prejudice in your eyes? How is it different from people criticizing new immigrants for taking over jobs and scholarships? Maybe these people want to be members of these clubs (not all are).

[:)]

One thing to add, civil rights movement only started during 1960's and already many of you think it was AGES ago that equality and basic human rights for everyone were achieved. Comparing four DECADES of ongoing fight for equal rights to four CENTURIES of oppressions, its only very short recent time that this idea of equal rights were in placed. Get out of your rosy, fantasy, makeabelieve mind set and come back harsh reality.

[:)]

To wintergal, GET OUT OF YOUR RIDICULOUS "ASIAN PRIVILEGE" THINKING. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. WHEN I WAS APPLYING FOR JOBS, I FACED "ASIAN DISADVANTAGE". THOSE WHITE EMPLOYERS DIDN'T WANT TO HIRE ME AND ONLY WILL WHEN THEY COULDN'T FIND QUALIFIED WHITE CANDIDATES. THIS HAPPENED TO EVERY JOB THAT I APPLIED AND HAPPENS TO EVERY ASIANS I KNOW. IT IS UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED FACT. JUST LIKE COLLEGE AND GRADUATE PROGRAM, YOU GOT TO BE EXCEPTIONALLY BETTER THAN YOUR WHITE PEERS TO BE ACCEPTED INTO A PRODIGIOUS PROGRAM. AND FORGET ABOUT PROMOTION. I KNOW SO MANY ASIANS WHO ARE EXCELLENT AT WHAT THEY DO BUT GET PASSED FOR PROMOTION WHILE THEIR NOT SO TALENT WHITE PEERS GET PROMOTED. THERE IS A TERM FOR THAT, "ASIAN CEILING". TALK TO ANY ASIAN PROFESSIONALS WORKING IN CORPORATE AMERICA AND THEY WILL TELL YOU SAME THING. ITS OBVIOUS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SOCIAL EXPERIENCE TO WARRANT A MEANING CONCLUSION BUT BE FORE WARNED.

[writergal28/Cynthia]

:)

It's called knowing people. As I said, many white people have connections in this country that you might not know about. You need connections to really get anywhere and if you don't you have to work really hard. That's why so many parents scrape their money to send their children to old line prep schools. That's why Asian parents are so obsessed with NAMED SCHOOLS. My cousin wanted to go to a small university which had a program that he liked, but my aunt refused to let him. He had to go to a Big U, because Big Us are, in her eyes, more of an advantage for him.

[ei-nyung]

"already many of you think it was AGES ago that equality and basic human rights for everyone were achieved."

Who are you talking to? Who is "many of you"? Clearly, no, we don't think so.

Arg. I am now thinking that ":)" is a troll. I have taken the bait. I am sorry to everyone here for having indirectly validated this person's rantings by responding to them.

---

In regard to the discussion between Cynthia and The Wrong MJ, I think that having thought of it further, at least in the US, there is no blanket concept such as "Asian Privilege" that is equivalent to White Privilege as it exists in the American discourse.

There is both a philosphical difference and a pragmatic difference. The philosophical difference is that the privilege, if any, is not one afforded by nature of being Asian in America, but one that is potentially afforded despite being Asian (or any other minority group) in America. This privilege can potentially be afforded to any minority by socioeconomic factors (job & money & home locatin) but comes despite race rather than because of it, unlike American White Privilege.

The pragmatic difference, as TWMJ pointed out, is that as people who live in the US, only some of us ever see anything like "Asian Privilege" and most of us never even heard or saw a glimpse of it, not in our lives or in popular media or a hint of it on the internet. The only reason I see it is that on a very, very local scale, I think the Bay Area tech industry has such a strong association between highly-represented Asian Americans and success coupled with such large concentrations that there is a sense of normalcy about seeing Asians, that it feels very "mainstream". Again, I stress that it's *very* localized and I do not think you see it in many places, if any other. I have never seen it anywhere else. Even in different parts of the cities, just going about 5 miles away, it's back to what I think of as normal.

There are times when I sit in a meeting room with 20 people, and only one of them is white. But I also painfully note that while Asian Americans are well-represented in the room, I don't see other minority groups represented and that is just as bad.

[writergal28/Cynthia]

Just to note: I never said that so-called "Asian Privilege" exists all over Canada. It's pretty much limited to certain circles in Toronto and Vancouver (and MAYBE Calgary and Edmonton).

[:)]

Hey Why are you accusing me of being a troll ? I am just writing what I have experienced and felt.

[ei-nyung]

I went back and thought further about white privilege, and the fundamental difference is this: white privilege means that a person can go about their daily routine and live life and speak to other people, and not have the assumption of representing a whole group of people hanging over their head.

The Asian people that both you and I have been referring to seem like Asian people who are privileged, not people who are benefitting from the privilege of being Asian this can live life knowing that they are not judged for representing their race but as primarily individuals.

Do you think that makes sense?

[ei-nyung]

"... not people who are benefitting from the privilege of being Asian this can live life knowing that they are not judged for representing their race but as primarily individuals"

Should be "thus" not "this".