Kimchi Mamas WTF of the week

Really, Spanish basketball team?  Really? That's how you do?

I just have one thing to say: Fuck all y'all.

Stefania Pomponi Butler doesn't like to mince words.

Comments

[Susan]

wow...just, wow.

[kp]

This is really bad. I cant beleive they are allowed to do this.

[Carol]

Oh this is bad ... really, really bad ... no offense intended? What was the intention then ... Class? Good sportsmanship? Common humanity? Did they think that the Chinese, who are hosting their asses, would find it freakin' hilarious?? More like they didn't give a sh** how those they are mocking in this picture would take it. What's next? Blackface when they go up against Cameroon in soccer? Ah, to be insular and xenophobic.

[The Wrong MJ]

Man, I wish that china would tell those assholes to just pack up their bags and go home for being disrespectful. I mean, this wasn't just rude to chinese ppl, but to all east asians, since the slant eye seems to be the universal way to mock east asians. For all of the ppl (in the advertisement/pic) involved to think that something like this would be ok, just baffles my mind. Frankly, I think that they knew they were being racist and disrespectful, but are pretending to play dumb.

[HCG]

I feel like I'm in 4th grade again.

Actually I'm glad this happened, because it once again reminded me of yet another thing I'm going to have to teach my kid about and how to stop it dead it its tracks.

[Susan C.]

It freaking boggles my mind that they think that they can get away with that sort of b/s. I'm with the Wrong MJ, it'd be great if the team was booted out. The stupidity....

[Alice]

The Spanish have had much controversy already in the sporting world in terms of what many deem to be racist actions. In regards to the idea of dressing up in blackface for a Cameroon soccer match, you are not far off. The Spanish fans are KNOWN the world over for making MONKEY noises EVERYTIME a black soccer player comes out onto the field. This is the topic of many an internet board discussion. Also, note that all men are using their middle fingers to make the slant eye gesture. While one can argue that the middle finger doesn't mean over there what it means over here, it does seem like a pretty remarkable coincidence that all the men are using their middle fingers. I think most humans use their index fingers to point. Finally, this ad was put out in the largest Spanish sporting magazine in the country, similar to Sports Illustrated, in response to winning a contract for sponsership, from a Chinese footwear company! What a way to thank your financial backing and the hosts of the Olympic games. This act truly brings to light some of the racist attitudes prevalent in Spain, as this ad had to go through dozens of approvals before being printed. All were complicit.

[erica]

ahhh, flashbacks of grade school.

[Bea]

Ugh, this picture takes me back to elementary school, it makes me sick. And what makes me even more upset, is because I live in Arkansas I know friends and family who would probably think that this is funny.

[Cynthia]

Not to play the devil's advocate, but maybe some countries aren't as up on PC-ness as others, or they see different things as PC or not PC. I know that they really should have checked with media in other countries before posting this or done a little research, but we can't apply what WE think is right (or wrong) to a different culture.

Like I said in another post. Alumnae at my high school are called Old Girls. To a random woman who is not familiar with schools modelled after English "public schools" it is probably seen as an insulting term.

[Carol]

Cynthia/ChineseCanuck: it's okay to disagree, but in this forum, we support our community in expressing themselves openly and honestly, however they feel. So please don't continue to invalidate our contributors and commenters in deference to what a different culture might think. The Spaniards, not all, but the ones involved with this ad, while they may have not meant any malice in their minds, have shown themselves to be quite ignorant and frankly unsophisticated in their world view. Which in and of itself is not a crime. But we will not excuse it and say, oh, it's okay, in your culture it's not racist, it's really cute and funny! So it's okay! Nuh-uh. Not here.

Just as a general point, because I really feel I need to support of all of us who have built up such a positive community for Korean and Korean-connected moms (and supportive dads and friends):

Yes, we know other cultures and societies think differently towards matters of race. But if we wanted to constantly keep quiet and automatically defer to others standards, as though our point of view is not valid at all - well, this blog wouldn't even exist. That's simply not what you're going to get by choosing to read and participate in this blog. It is not about just being PC - it is also about the context around what occurred and hopefully about being a HUMAN in a global sense. The Olympics is not just about games, it's a time when people of different cultures and backgrounds come together in common human-hood - at times countries at war have gone into ceasefire just to participate. I guess that common ground is just an illusion, judging from the photo above. Or our slanty little eyes are just too funny to resist taking a pot shot at. We know these racist sh** attitudes are out there, but yes, we're American, we can't help but be shocked by the blatantness of it. And we're going to say something. If you want a more deferential outlook on the event ... you probably want to go elsewhere - it is a big blog world out there, and we love our visitors, but please let us have our safe place to vent, be upset, be whatever we want to be - and most of all, be ourselves. Thank you.

[FingKASIL]

Cynthia: How is your remark "not to play the devil's advocate?"

It's not a question of being "PC." It's a glaring example of mocking the physical traits of those that differ from you. It is common knowledge that many European countries currently struggle with a crisis of racism. This is a prime example. It is offensive, hateful, and inexcusable. end of story.

[Cynthia]

Carol,

So you're denying the freedom of expression here? I don't understand. Don't you want a different POV? Won't that open discussion? I find that most ethnic-related blogs seem to have a negative tilt to it, and won't accept points of view that they disagree with. And I find that very sad.

Thanks

[Cynthia]

FingKASIL:

My point is that while other parts of the world would consider this offensive, (some people in) Spain might not. I used the Old Girl terminology as an example. Lots of outsiders (i.e. the majority) will think "Old Girl" is a sexist term, but many women who went to my school wear it with pride.

[Karen]

Carol, Can you explain where in her post Cynthia crossed the line from disagreeing to invalidating? I'm a new reader and it's not that clear to me... although the "continue to invalidate" suggests that there's some history.

[Karen]

The thing about that picture that bothers me the most is that it involves the participation of dozens of people. Somebody knew better and didn't have the courage to abstain, let alone speak up.

[Mary]

Cynthia, do you know for a fact that doing the slanty eye thing is considered "PC" in Spain? If not, I really don't understand the point of your first comment. It seems like you are disagreeing for disagreement sake, which is very counter productive to say the least.

I welcome a different POV and I beleive everyone here does. A different POV for this story would be that they were NOT being offensive when they did that. Is that what you are saying? Or are you just saying that ANYTHING that someone from a different culture does cannot be criticized or judged upon because we don't know their culture?

I find your comment to be so relativistic that it's irrelevant and distracting to real dialogue and discussion.

[Carol]

Cynthia/ChineseCanuck:

Freedom of expression - yes. Absolutely. We want that here.

Undermining and negating other commenters feelings and reactions - no. No, no, no. We have so few places to discuss freely in a healthy manner - in both the real life and online realms. Mainstream points of view are very well-represented all over the blogosphere. The views that you see expressed here, not so much. And that is the whole point.

You are welcome here. Of course, being who we are and what we write about - I certainly don't claim to be third party-objective in my opinions - so we may not be as neutral as you'd like us to be. I'm probably way too overprotective of our little community, but I needed to say something. But the key is constructive discussion. Yes, there definitely are blogs out there that feed off polarizing their audience, or have all out comment wars with one another - that's just not what Kimchi Mamas is about.

[FingKASIL]

I concur with Mary. Your comments are so relativistic to become meaningless. Are there "some people" in Spain who would not find this offensive? Surely. There are "some people" in this country who think segregation is a great idea and should be reinstated. There are "some people" who think that women should be killed for "dishonoring" their families by being raped. There are "some people" who think child pornography is awesome. There are "some people" everywhere that think anything. Should we excuse these things because "some people" support them? What is your point?

[Carol]

Thanks Mary ... sigh. The picture makes abundantly clear that the people involved saw nothing wrong with it. We already know that. I'm sure plenty of people outside of Spain got a kick out of it, as well. But that doesn't mean all of us have to go along with the joke, on the basis that it's perfectly fine in another culture. On a more vicious parallel, I also think human rights violations and genocide are horrifying, and that won't change just because they are sanctioned in countries where they take place.

Just thinking aloud now ... Because we're moms, it also ups the ante for us - what do I say to my son when he sees a picture like this and asks why are they pulling their eyes like that? Do I say, oh, they are just trying to look Chinese, because look, Chinese people have slanty eyes, don't they! And it wasn't mean of them to do that because where they come from it's a really nice thing to do, even if some Chinese people don't like it? So don't speak up and and state your beliefs even if it bothers you, because that's imposing what you think on them. Oh, and even though it's okay for them to do it, I don't want you to make fun people who look different from you, it's not nice. No mixed messages in there, at all! Ugh. Parenting is hard. :-)

[Cynthia]

My point is, FingKASIL et al, that just because some people find certain things acceptable, doesn't mean that we need to tell them that it's wrong for them. Women who went to my high school would be very upset if someone went in and said that they couldn't call themselves Old Girls anymore because it sounds un-PC, especially if the people are outsiders who have had NO EXPERIENCE with old line independent schools. I'm surprised that on one has addressed the whole Old Girl thing yet. Is it not similar?

[twizzle]

Carol - Thank you for so eloquently expressing what our KM blog is all about, and the kinds of dialogue we value here.

On a sort of related note, I wanted to share w/ you a T-shirt I saw while on a hiking trail in Montana recently:

Graphic: Confederate flag
Message: "If at first you don't SECEDE, try, try again!"

WTF? What century are we living in, dude?

Twizzle

[Masita]

I hope all these anger gets turned into something positive. We indeed have a right to disagree and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Linda]

That picture brings back bad memories of grade school, when I actually had some jerk slant his eyes with his fingers and say to me "Ching chong". Nice huh?

It was hurtful then and still as hurtful today. It pains me that my children (20 some years later) will still have to face these types of racial offenses when they go to school. So, while some say that certain people in Spain have no idea that it is not PC or offensive, it doesn't change the fact that it STILL IS offensive to all Asians.

[FingKASIL]

Cynthia: If the world were to follow your logic, then the entire international community should ignore human rights violations around the globe because "some people find certain things acceptable, [so that] doesn't mean that we need to tell them that it's wrong for them." Is that what you are suggesting?

Your example of the Old Girls is not relevant in this discussion because you are citing a group of women who call *themselves* Old Girls. They are not being labeled Old Girls against their will by some outside group.

I realize now, however, that I have been drawn into this pseudo-debate because of my own passionate feelings on this matter and feel silly.

[Carol]

Cynthia/ChineseCanuck: No, we don't have to say anything at all about anything we might construe as wrong or offensive.

But you bet your goongdegi we will. Hell yeah!

KIMCHI MAMAS UNITE!!

[The Wrong MJ]

FingKASIL,

Bravo, well said! I was going to post something in response to cynthia, but you did such a good job of it.

Masita brought up a good point. What is being done about this? I want to know. Are they being held responsible for this? Or is this another one of those incidents where we (asian community) will be scoffed at. "Your too sensitive, can't you take a joke?" {eye roll}

[Mary]

Cynthia, by your logic then, you don't need to tell the writers/readers of this blog that it is "wrong" for us to be mad about that picture because it is acceptable to us to be mad about it.

See how that goes? Doesn't make sense huh?

I welcome disagreement but I am not sure what is being disagreed with here. Is it not a fact that it was "wrong" for them to do that? If someone thinks it was "right" for them to do that, (not tolerable, not acceptable) please persuade me.

[FingKASIL]

From what I've read online, the photo was taken as part of an advertising campaign for Seur, a Spanish courier company. Some articles are stating that it was their idea to have the players pose this way.

Any movement to boycott this company? Anyone know if they are owned by a larger parent company?

[Mama Nabi]

Well then... "Old Girls" can go fuck themselves as far as I care... I don't see any relevance at all. Not really sure how that example is even parallel to anything... except it seems parallel to all weirdass analogies that come from the same commenter.

Now, if you called ME an "Old Girl", I might be offended despite some truth in the comment.

An entire Olympic-ranking basketball making fun of a racial feature and unable to see how it would be offensive? Yeah, they can all piss off and expect decreased tourism in their country.

Yeah, I just invoked MY right to disagree in my own fashion.

[HCG]

Cynthia,

Let's put it this way. If YOU had a child who was surrounded by this sort of thing over and over again outside the home, in the media, at school, at the grocery store do you think it would be acceptable? Would you think it was YOUR CHILD'S problem because people weren't being hostile? That it was just a joke?

The school thing you're bringing up is completely irrelevant, there is no parallelism, no law of syllogy to it. I think you're bringing up as a distractive element for the sake of making hay out of nothing. But that might just be because I'm a Seven Sisters college grad and we've NEVER referred to ourselves as anything but women, since well we were women in college.

[FingKASIL]

This is slightly OT, but may I add one other example? It was also reported from the Olympics earlier this week that a member of the Iranian Olympic Swim Team called in sick to his swimming heat to avoid getting into the pool with an Israeli.

His punishment for that demonstration of bigotry and vitriol? Bupkus, that's what.

[alilyinthevalley]

Wow, this does bring back memories. When we first came to this country, a classmate pulled that gesture on me accompanied by "ching-chong, ching-chong." I had no idea what she was doing, but I somehow guessed that she was being mean. I told her "don't do that." It seems it is okay to be nasty to Asians while it’s verboten to be insensitive to other ethnic and racial groups.

Lil

[Carol]

However you choose to personally feel or not feel about what the people associated with the picture, is up to you. But everyone is responsible for the words they put out there - the KM writers and editors are held to the same standards. Those who want to express themselves here do need to consider the context of who and what this blog is ... moms who happen to be connected to Korean culture. Please ask yourself, will this comment further the discourse given the community, or only stir up anger and hurt community members. The latter is not worth it. When it gets out of control, and it's simply people just derailing and reacting to one another, unfortunately, then we have to start considering moderating, and at worst, banning, which we really don't like to do. But we have to do what is best for the community overall, not what's best for only one person. (Oh, I sound soooooo like a Korean mom just now...)

What this picture has done for me, is further damage the world view as a place that where we can all learn to appreciate, if not love, the difference in others. It's really tragic.